“If you have to look along the shaft of an arrow from the wrong end, if a man has you entirely at his mercy, then hope like hell that man is an evil man. Because the evil like power, power over people, and they want to see you in fear. They want you to know you’re going to die. So they’ll talk. They’ll gloat.
They’ll watch you squirm. They’ll put off the moment of murder like another man will put off a good cigar.
So hope like hell your captor is an evil man. A good man will kill you with hardly a word.”
Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms
You know, a paragon isn’t necessarily a good person. They just believe themselves to be the most correct, and therefore are immune to being convinced of another path. But on the other hand, Kendal is less a paragon, and more of a regular hero. He has his own limitations, such as doubting his decisions, and feeling bad about his mistakes. A paragon wouldn’t do either of those, believing themselves to have made the right choices. He is, however, showing major signs of becoming a paragon, when he ignores his teammate’s advice, like when he snuck out at night to confront “Falst”. (No idea where the name came from, but it’s cool.) Anywho, Kendal being a paragon isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but please remember that being a paragon isn’t necessarily a good thing either. It’s really easy for a paragon to oppose the heroes. Especially if what they believe to be the right choice might hurt a lot of people, and the protagonist is one of those sticklers that believe in “protecting the few over the greater good” or some nonsense like that. Maybe give Red’s Trope Talks a look?
True, true. But I wouldn’t say Kendal is becoming a paragon; it is clear to me he already is one. Beyond Red herself referring to him as a paragon, his behaviours have been indicative of that archetype since his creation:
1) He insisted on leaving Alinua’s quarantine to find Vash, even to the point of recruiting her to accompany him.
2) He refused Alinua’s help when fighting the Sentinel, despite being outmatched, so she wouldn’t get hurt.
3) He keeps hugging Alinua against her wishes when she has magical overloads, hoping to help her.
4) He plans on entering the Singing Caves with no regard for his own safety in order to rescue Vash.
5) He continued to ignore Alinua’s sensibilities when approaching and caring for the Possessed Erin.
6) He then insisted to remain with Erin since the mysterious black energy couldn’t easily destroy him.
7) He immediately went to retrieve Erin’s possessions, putting himself in the way of Erin’s spells, to Erin’s chagrin.
8) He sneaked out of town to negotiate with Falst even though everyone else sees him as a monster.
9) He now seems intent on breaking up the fight even if it means harming Falst somewhat.
Here is a pattern of others telling Kendal not to do something resulting in Kendal proceeding to follow his own instincts and moral compass anyway, regardless of others’ opinions. Not only does that seem very ‘Paragon’ to me, but it also seems ‘good’ (excuse the paradoxically cyclic nature of the definition of that word, and let’s just prescribe to an emotivist utilitarian perspective of morality for the purposes of this debate) in that he is prioritising the well-being of others above… pretty much everything else.
Oh, and I have watched literally all of Red’s Trope Talks so please do not patronise me like that.
Ok, so, first of all, sorry that I came across as patronizing. I didn’t mean to at all. I genuinely thought you would enjoy the videos, so I thought I would suggest them. I didn’t mean to be rude at all. Secondly, you have made your point, and apparently also researched the subject a lot more than I did, so I think you win this one. Lastly, I was also trying to point out that Kendal as a paragon wasn’t necessarily a nice person, in response to you calling him floofy and hug-able. After looking at your side of the argument, you are clearly right that he is a paragon, but I also wanted to make sure that you didn’t think I was trying to be a jerk about this.
Idk if all of these make him a Paragon? I mean, most of these examples are either super generic heroic traits that show up in 90% of shonen and/or fantasy hero plots or are due to Kendal being between a rock and a hard place and with little else guiding him beyond a sword, his own week old moral code, and his friends.
Idk all the stuff you pointed out just look like “he did something heroic and nice therefore Paragon”
I thought a paragon is just a hero who ALWAYS tries to do the right thing and inspires others to join. so yes that can make them bad but it won’t usually make them very different then your average hero
Everybody’s talking about the wrist breaking, but I’m more interested in Alinua’s actions this page. Its clear that she has a lot of emotions with this fight, enough for her to prob not quite think. She tries to argue with kendal, but stops in the middle of her sentence – what was she going to say?
I think she was going to say, “But he made the chimeras!” Remember, she has a lot of emotions surrounding chimera–their formation, their awful state of being, the fact that she feared for a long time she would make chimeras, and the fact that she had to basically kill one. And she still thinks Falst made them (although I think everyone agrees she’s wrong about that).
Thanks to the conversation Kendal had with Falst earlier (before The Pompous Nitwit kicked down the door and screwed everything up), I’m now certain that Falst isn’t the culprit here. Alinua still thinks he is, and since she evidently values the life of some random bear over Falst’s life, her rage blinds her from the truth.
(Side note: While I condemn animal torture/weaponization, I don’t think that people who do that sh*t deserve to die on principle. I’ll definitely think they’re a callous a**hole, but my ‘justifiable revenge-murder’ threshold is a good bit higher than that… and apparently a good bit higher than Alinua’s and especially Erin’s.)
But again, there’s more to the chimeras than just killing a bear. 1) I think there are multiple chimeras (am I wrong about that?), and not just bears. 2) It’s not just killing the creature, it’s transforming them into a twisted, painful, half-alive state. That’s worse than death, in my mind.
I’m not saying I support Alinua killing Falst (who, again, I’m positive isn’t guilty of creating the chimeras). I’m with you on this one–I wouldn’t kill someone just for animal torture. My point is, the situation here, and Alinua’s decision, isn’t quite as bad as valuing the life of a random bear over Falst’s. Not to mention she manages to reign herself in on this page, athough whether that’s because she thinks Kendal will kill Falst, or because she realizes she shouldn’t want Falst dead, I can’t guess.
Also, I reiterate, Alinua has a lot of emotions surrounding chimeras. She was long afraid she would cause everything she healed to become messed up and twisted, and she can (I think) detect and understand the pain chimeras are in. As such, she’s definitely not thinking clearly. I don’t think her conscious “justifiable revenge-murder threshold” is quite as low as it appears on this page. (Not saying it’s not low, it’s just (probably) a little higher than it seems right now.) In fact, it’s kind of impressive she has the emotional maturity to stop herself and step back here. She’s still pretty ruthless, but at least she’s not sadistic.
As for Erin’s threshold . . . Falst stole books. That’s above every “justifiable revenge-murder” threshold. OK, I’m definitely kidding here. Books are valuable but nothing is that valuable except for life. The point is, Erin isn’t really thinking clearly either, and he’s hubristic and self-centered. Yes, his threshold is still disturbingly low, but not really out of malice or ruthlessness. He just . . . doesn’t think. Not to mention he’s probably never killed before, so the idea of killing doesn’t really compute as that monumental in his mind. Yet.
Sorry, I don’t know why I wrote such a long comment. I know I’m defending these characters a lot, but I actually agree with you that they’re definitely flawed, and both Erin and Alinua have concerningly low thresholds of “justifiable revenge-murder”. Fortunately, character growth is a thing! And of course Kendal will always be here to shine as a paragon. (Besides, Flast’s threshold clearly isn’t any higher than Alinua’s. They were both going to kill each other. Part of Alinua’s low threshold comes from self-defense, at least in this case.)
I know this long comment was a huge overreaction–especially considering I wasn’t even annoyed by your comment, I only wanted to respond to your arguments–I just haven’t had a good debate in so long and I miss refuting points and making arguments and . . . frankly, I simply wanted to go through the mental process of debating. I miss it so much, since quarantine has thrown a wrench in every oppurtunity I have to sit down and have a long, intelligent conversation with someone. This is no substitute, and it’s kinda ridiculous to spend time debating the morality of and motivation behind emotional, in-the-moment decisions made by made-up characters that have little to no influence on decisions I would ever make in real life, but I couldn’t resist. What can I say, I miss philosophical conversations.
Yeah, this is a weird comment. Sorry. You make good points, though, and I admire your strong sense of morality. I don’t even disagree with you, I think I just have a slightly different perspective on the context surrounding how willing Alinua and Erin are to kill. And I wanted to write something long and exhaustively argued. Still, I agree–it’s disconcerting how low their “justifiable murder threshold”s are. (I love that phrase.)
Please don’t hate me for being over-the-top I just miss good discussions and your points were so good I had to respond
Don’t worry, the pandemic has wrecked everyones chances to have good conversations. We get it. I’m kinda surprised that I haven’t posted an even longer comment than yours yet, tbh
Haha, it’s fine. I love it when someone can refute an argument of mine with such civility as you have shown. Constructive criticism is honestly one of my favorite parts of theorizing.
And I agree with Varda: you have a really cool name
Oh, I love debating too! If I have a good argument, I’m going to share it—word count be damned.
Also, Erin’s approach to combat is likely influenced by his hubris combined with his sheer power—he’s proud, but he can back it up in the magical ability department. He probably thinks along the lines of: ‘Well, I CAN lob a carriage’s worth of lava at someone, so why shouldn’t I?’ And there’s not much more to it; he’s basically showing off, or expecting his opponent to back down out of intimidation (trouble is, Erin himself isn’t that intimidating).
I wish I could reply to fourth-level (I think they’re fourth level?) comments. They just assume no one would want to carry on a conversation that long, so I have to reply to my own comment. *Sigh*
Anyway, thank you, you guys are awesome. I panicked after I posted this comment and realized I had probably made a mistake. I love debating (I’m with you, Patroclus77, screw word limits), but I’m wimpy and hate getting into arguments and offending people, which is often what happens online. As fun as it is to debate, I should probably learn to delete long comments like this before I post them. It’s a bad habit. Going overboard like this rarely ends as well as this has–the OSP and Aurora communities are unusually kind, in my experience. And thank heavens for that! Perfect place for rambling and theorizing.
Again, you guys are amazing. Thanks. And thanks for the compliments about my name! I love all your names too.
Poor Falst. i can see the expression of someone who has worked for ages for something, is almost there, and then it’s all being taken away in the space of a few minutes, and he’s powerless to stop it. This is made worse by the fact that we DON’T EVEN KNOW WHAT HE’S DOING WITH THE LACRIMA. No-one actually knows whether he created the chimera or not, they’re just assuming and then attacking him for it. I’m fairly sure alinua still thinks he made them, so she REALLY is not happy with that, and i feel like she would have broken more than his wrists given the chance.
Most likely, Falst was trying to make himself look human. See his motivation in Kendal conversation. It’s been mentioned just touching the rock will make physical forms twist up and go berserk, so probably a bunch of critters just touched the thing and got warped.
Of course it could just be that Red is pushing us down that one assumption, I have half the mind to be on the look out for Falst having some other plan than the one we, and collectively the floof squad, have assumed.
Last page’s comment section: Kendal is such a paragon, he’ll hug it out and talk about it with lion-boy.
This page’s comment section: O_O
To be fair to Kendal, Falst did make it clear, by words and actions, he’s not going to part with the lacrima willingly. So, extreme as the method may seem, he needs to be taken out of the fight. (He’s still conscious though so getting his side of the story is still possible)
Also leads into getting Alinua to tag out to deal with the lacrima, you can tell from the first panels she isn’t thinking straight when pressed with Kendal’s logic.
so Falst just owned the Magus Elemental, held his own against a powered-up Alinua (and was possibly about to rake her face in), and Kendal walks on and destroys him with one hand
This IS someone who has the body of a god and is some kind of demigod themselves.
Falst may have genuine grievances and perhaps a relatively harmless intent with regards to the lacrima, but he’s already demonstrated, if not a total lack of empathy, at least a severely diminished empathy/care for those around him. At this point it really has gone too far, but though technically this is the first time Kendal has been in the this situation, he has the memories of Vash and a similar personality, I think we can trust him to make logical, humane decisions here.
Trope talks, Nemesis. Good guy Kendal is done messing around. I don’t think that they have know Falst long enough to count as a nemesis, but I think this is Kendal’s reaction here.
And on panel four we see that Kendal is literally holding the feral catboy in place by the fist. Why doesn’t he move…?
*Last panel loads* OH THAT’S WHY
My favorite thing about this whole fight is that cocky people get punished for their hubris and by the end Kendal is just tired of the bullshit and just won’t let him try to make his case anymore. He wanted to talk! He wanted to figure out a peaceful way to solve this! But Falst just keeps fighting, so a fight is what he’s gonna get, dirty tactics, no holds barred.
Ferin, like lion-boi here, are nearly immune to life magic. He can’t be healed by Alinua or Dr. Jolon. (Or by Erin, but he doesn’t seem to heal people anyway)
I wonder if Kendal felt okay with breaking Falst’s hand because he knows Alinua could heal it in less than a second, and he was trying to break through Falst’s rage fog. Though the question is then, will Alinua be willing to heal it? Either way, ouch.
Ah, true, I forgot about that. Though the extra lore page on Ferins mentions their sturdiness and ability to heal from injuries that would damage or kill other people, so maybe that’s the justification. Or maybe Kendel’s just being extreme in the moment and not thinking about that.
Considering that Falst looks shocked as opposed to crying out in pain, I’m thinking he cracked his knuckles to show he can break his bones if he’s forced to.
I swear to gods, I was starting to really not stand Falst because of how self-righteous he is, and didn’t want to comment because he does have good reason to not be pleasant, but.
Need to steal from a mage, because you’re too ostracized to have a chance to obtain materials otherwise? That’s awful, and understandable. Said Mage getting upset? Also understandable. You going on an enormous, insulting rant, about how as the whole world is out to get you, those who go against you are pompous, small minded fools who don’t understand, and deserve whatever you decide to do with them once you get frustrated? Uhhhhh…
I don’t think we have any real reason to think Falst isn’t the one making the chimeras. I mean, how OOC would it be for him to be making those as anatomical experiments, and not care about what happens to those at all, since their suffering doesn’t hold a candle to his.
What I’m trying to say here is I’m glad those monologues weren’t meant to be likable, and I’m *really* glad Kendal’s cutting him off.
Agreed. I personally believe Falst isn’t responsible for the chimeras but seeing his actions, methods and dialogue I can’t rule that possibility out either. Red’s storytelling and character work is keeping me guessing.
Same. Falst might not be a big bad, but he’s certainly not a nice guy either. He also slashed Kendall and knocked him off a tree, which would have been potentially fatal had he not been Kendall. As Falst didn’t know what he is, there’s really no reason for Alinua or Erin to give him the benefit of the doubt now. And his attitude when Kendal tried talking it out didn’t suggest he was willing to hear any opinion other than his own. Kendall tried being nice, now he needs to make Falst stop attacking and listen.
Well… how would he make the Chimeras? Unless I overlooked something, Ferin are supposedly unable to become mages. Is he making the Chimeras by rubbing it against the animals that get mutated? Is he holding onto it for someone else?
I agree but… The whole world kind of IS out to get him. I know how frustrating it can be when people don’t understand you or your point of view, and I haven’t been ostracised from society like Falst has. He’s probably never had any friends, he doesn’t appear to have any family (at least, not anymore). He’s probably lonely and resentful on a scale we can’t even comprehend. And that is precisely the problem.
As for creating the chimerae? No, I don’t think it would be out of character, but I just don’t know how he would do it. We don’t know how long he’s had the lacrima, and even if he’s had it a good while, he only managed to steal mage’s materials recently. Could he have used the lacrima without Erin’s stuff? There’s just too much we don’t know and I’m not going to assume he’s guilty until it’s proven.
Oooh! The good old “I’ve been holding back this whole time and could kill you anytime I like”. I wonder if we’ll get a World of Cardboard-speech from Kendal too…
Everyone here is talking about Falst may not have been making the Chimeras, how brutal Kendal is being, and how Falst must feel like everything is being taken away from him, but here’s one notable thing that probably surprised Falst more than anything: Kendal broke his wrist. It’s not the pain that would surprise him, it’s the surprise, surprise that someone had the strength to not only pull that off, but do it nearly effortlessly, to break the wrist of a race of people with incredible strength and durability, a people whom you would have better luck pushing down a deeply rooted century old tree than breaking the bones of those people. No one should be capable of doing something like what Kendal did, it goes against everything Falst knows. Yet here Kendal is. Pulling it off.
I was rather expecting something like that to happen eventually. That’s just how it goes when a guy strong enough to beat down twenty foot tall stone golems winds up fighting someone regular person sized.
This is in reply to Lazuul’s comment (in case it doesn’t show up in the right place):
For all we know this could be the start of a longer term nemesis situation, perhaps Red is purposefully breaking the trope a bit, having Kendal realise (to some extent) what’s going on fairly earlier, but then perhaps–maybe out of guilt–later sympathizing with Falst?
Kendal has just come to terms with the implications of having two powerful healers in the party: “no lasting damage” is the exact same threshold as “not technically lethal”. He hasn’t stopped being nice, he’s stopped taking risks by playing with this enemy. I’m sure broken bones will heal up fine.
broooo Kendaljust casually breaks some bones!!
This is a… new… side to Kendal.
I don’t like it. Where’s the floofy, hug-able paragon I know and love?
“If you have to look along the shaft of an arrow from the wrong end, if a man has you entirely at his mercy, then hope like hell that man is an evil man. Because the evil like power, power over people, and they want to see you in fear. They want you to know you’re going to die. So they’ll talk. They’ll gloat.
They’ll watch you squirm. They’ll put off the moment of murder like another man will put off a good cigar.
So hope like hell your captor is an evil man. A good man will kill you with hardly a word.”
Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms
You know, a paragon isn’t necessarily a good person. They just believe themselves to be the most correct, and therefore are immune to being convinced of another path. But on the other hand, Kendal is less a paragon, and more of a regular hero. He has his own limitations, such as doubting his decisions, and feeling bad about his mistakes. A paragon wouldn’t do either of those, believing themselves to have made the right choices. He is, however, showing major signs of becoming a paragon, when he ignores his teammate’s advice, like when he snuck out at night to confront “Falst”. (No idea where the name came from, but it’s cool.) Anywho, Kendal being a paragon isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but please remember that being a paragon isn’t necessarily a good thing either. It’s really easy for a paragon to oppose the heroes. Especially if what they believe to be the right choice might hurt a lot of people, and the protagonist is one of those sticklers that believe in “protecting the few over the greater good” or some nonsense like that. Maybe give Red’s Trope Talks a look?
True, true. But I wouldn’t say Kendal is becoming a paragon; it is clear to me he already is one. Beyond Red herself referring to him as a paragon, his behaviours have been indicative of that archetype since his creation:
1) He insisted on leaving Alinua’s quarantine to find Vash, even to the point of recruiting her to accompany him.
2) He refused Alinua’s help when fighting the Sentinel, despite being outmatched, so she wouldn’t get hurt.
3) He keeps hugging Alinua against her wishes when she has magical overloads, hoping to help her.
4) He plans on entering the Singing Caves with no regard for his own safety in order to rescue Vash.
5) He continued to ignore Alinua’s sensibilities when approaching and caring for the Possessed Erin.
6) He then insisted to remain with Erin since the mysterious black energy couldn’t easily destroy him.
7) He immediately went to retrieve Erin’s possessions, putting himself in the way of Erin’s spells, to Erin’s chagrin.
8) He sneaked out of town to negotiate with Falst even though everyone else sees him as a monster.
9) He now seems intent on breaking up the fight even if it means harming Falst somewhat.
Here is a pattern of others telling Kendal not to do something resulting in Kendal proceeding to follow his own instincts and moral compass anyway, regardless of others’ opinions. Not only does that seem very ‘Paragon’ to me, but it also seems ‘good’ (excuse the paradoxically cyclic nature of the definition of that word, and let’s just prescribe to an emotivist utilitarian perspective of morality for the purposes of this debate) in that he is prioritising the well-being of others above… pretty much everything else.
Oh, and I have watched literally all of Red’s Trope Talks so please do not patronise me like that.
Ok, so, first of all, sorry that I came across as patronizing. I didn’t mean to at all. I genuinely thought you would enjoy the videos, so I thought I would suggest them. I didn’t mean to be rude at all. Secondly, you have made your point, and apparently also researched the subject a lot more than I did, so I think you win this one. Lastly, I was also trying to point out that Kendal as a paragon wasn’t necessarily a nice person, in response to you calling him floofy and hug-able. After looking at your side of the argument, you are clearly right that he is a paragon, but I also wanted to make sure that you didn’t think I was trying to be a jerk about this.
Idk if all of these make him a Paragon? I mean, most of these examples are either super generic heroic traits that show up in 90% of shonen and/or fantasy hero plots or are due to Kendal being between a rock and a hard place and with little else guiding him beyond a sword, his own week old moral code, and his friends.
Idk all the stuff you pointed out just look like “he did something heroic and nice therefore Paragon”
I thought a paragon is just a hero who ALWAYS tries to do the right thing and inspires others to join. so yes that can make them bad but it won’t usually make them very different then your average hero
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgh, that must hurt! Poor fingers/wrist 🙁
But Falst seems more baffled than anything…
Also here we have your Kendal_serious_face
WOW, Kendal . . .
Just wow.
Also, poor Falst. I can almost hear his voice breaking. Let him be happy PLEASE I need this for him
The only thing that’ll truly make him happy is the power of friendship
imagine breaking someones knuckles to prove a point. damn. remind me not to piss off a gods incarnation
“I am sorry tantrum-y child, it appears this is the only way you’ll listen. Now shut up and listen.”
Falst has claws too! Are they being pushed into his own palms right now? Man, RSPCA’s gonna be all over Kendal.
thank you for that mental image
I have to see it, and now you must share in my pain too.
0_0.
Kendal!
Everybody’s talking about the wrist breaking, but I’m more interested in Alinua’s actions this page. Its clear that she has a lot of emotions with this fight, enough for her to prob not quite think. She tries to argue with kendal, but stops in the middle of her sentence – what was she going to say?
I think she was going to say, “But he made the chimeras!” Remember, she has a lot of emotions surrounding chimera–their formation, their awful state of being, the fact that she feared for a long time she would make chimeras, and the fact that she had to basically kill one. And she still thinks Falst made them (although I think everyone agrees she’s wrong about that).
Thanks to the conversation Kendal had with Falst earlier (before The Pompous Nitwit kicked down the door and screwed everything up), I’m now certain that Falst isn’t the culprit here. Alinua still thinks he is, and since she evidently values the life of some random bear over Falst’s life, her rage blinds her from the truth.
(Side note: While I condemn animal torture/weaponization, I don’t think that people who do that sh*t deserve to die on principle. I’ll definitely think they’re a callous a**hole, but my ‘justifiable revenge-murder’ threshold is a good bit higher than that… and apparently a good bit higher than Alinua’s and especially Erin’s.)
Erin is primarily angry at him for stealing his bag, I think
And just for that, he chucked a boulder’s worth of lava at him. Like I said, Erin has a DISTURBINGLY low ‘justifiable revenge-murder’ threshold.
STEALING BOOKS IS ABSOLUTELY UNFORGIVABLE
Just kiddin’, Erin’s “low justifiable revenge-murder threshold” is probably just a part of his hubris. Erin’s brain will catch up with him eventually.
But again, there’s more to the chimeras than just killing a bear. 1) I think there are multiple chimeras (am I wrong about that?), and not just bears. 2) It’s not just killing the creature, it’s transforming them into a twisted, painful, half-alive state. That’s worse than death, in my mind.
I’m not saying I support Alinua killing Falst (who, again, I’m positive isn’t guilty of creating the chimeras). I’m with you on this one–I wouldn’t kill someone just for animal torture. My point is, the situation here, and Alinua’s decision, isn’t quite as bad as valuing the life of a random bear over Falst’s. Not to mention she manages to reign herself in on this page, athough whether that’s because she thinks Kendal will kill Falst, or because she realizes she shouldn’t want Falst dead, I can’t guess.
Also, I reiterate, Alinua has a lot of emotions surrounding chimeras. She was long afraid she would cause everything she healed to become messed up and twisted, and she can (I think) detect and understand the pain chimeras are in. As such, she’s definitely not thinking clearly. I don’t think her conscious “justifiable revenge-murder threshold” is quite as low as it appears on this page. (Not saying it’s not low, it’s just (probably) a little higher than it seems right now.) In fact, it’s kind of impressive she has the emotional maturity to stop herself and step back here. She’s still pretty ruthless, but at least she’s not sadistic.
As for Erin’s threshold . . . Falst stole books. That’s above every “justifiable revenge-murder” threshold. OK, I’m definitely kidding here. Books are valuable but nothing is that valuable except for life. The point is, Erin isn’t really thinking clearly either, and he’s hubristic and self-centered. Yes, his threshold is still disturbingly low, but not really out of malice or ruthlessness. He just . . . doesn’t think. Not to mention he’s probably never killed before, so the idea of killing doesn’t really compute as that monumental in his mind. Yet.
Sorry, I don’t know why I wrote such a long comment. I know I’m defending these characters a lot, but I actually agree with you that they’re definitely flawed, and both Erin and Alinua have concerningly low thresholds of “justifiable revenge-murder”. Fortunately, character growth is a thing! And of course Kendal will always be here to shine as a paragon. (Besides, Flast’s threshold clearly isn’t any higher than Alinua’s. They were both going to kill each other. Part of Alinua’s low threshold comes from self-defense, at least in this case.)
I know this long comment was a huge overreaction–especially considering I wasn’t even annoyed by your comment, I only wanted to respond to your arguments–I just haven’t had a good debate in so long and I miss refuting points and making arguments and . . . frankly, I simply wanted to go through the mental process of debating. I miss it so much, since quarantine has thrown a wrench in every oppurtunity I have to sit down and have a long, intelligent conversation with someone. This is no substitute, and it’s kinda ridiculous to spend time debating the morality of and motivation behind emotional, in-the-moment decisions made by made-up characters that have little to no influence on decisions I would ever make in real life, but I couldn’t resist. What can I say, I miss philosophical conversations.
Yeah, this is a weird comment. Sorry. You make good points, though, and I admire your strong sense of morality. I don’t even disagree with you, I think I just have a slightly different perspective on the context surrounding how willing Alinua and Erin are to kill. And I wanted to write something long and exhaustively argued. Still, I agree–it’s disconcerting how low their “justifiable murder threshold”s are. (I love that phrase.)
Please don’t hate me for being over-the-top I just miss good discussions and your points were so good I had to respond
Oh gosh it looks even longer now that I’ve posted it, I’m so sorry
Don’t worry, the pandemic has wrecked everyones chances to have good conversations. We get it. I’m kinda surprised that I haven’t posted an even longer comment than yours yet, tbh
I really relate to the debate thing, it was an absolute joy to read your long comment! Also, very cool name.
Haha, it’s fine. I love it when someone can refute an argument of mine with such civility as you have shown. Constructive criticism is honestly one of my favorite parts of theorizing.
And I agree with Varda: you have a really cool name
Oh, I love debating too! If I have a good argument, I’m going to share it—word count be damned.
Also, Erin’s approach to combat is likely influenced by his hubris combined with his sheer power—he’s proud, but he can back it up in the magical ability department. He probably thinks along the lines of: ‘Well, I CAN lob a carriage’s worth of lava at someone, so why shouldn’t I?’ And there’s not much more to it; he’s basically showing off, or expecting his opponent to back down out of intimidation (trouble is, Erin himself isn’t that intimidating).
I wish I could reply to fourth-level (I think they’re fourth level?) comments. They just assume no one would want to carry on a conversation that long, so I have to reply to my own comment. *Sigh*
Anyway, thank you, you guys are awesome. I panicked after I posted this comment and realized I had probably made a mistake. I love debating (I’m with you, Patroclus77, screw word limits), but I’m wimpy and hate getting into arguments and offending people, which is often what happens online. As fun as it is to debate, I should probably learn to delete long comments like this before I post them. It’s a bad habit. Going overboard like this rarely ends as well as this has–the OSP and Aurora communities are unusually kind, in my experience. And thank heavens for that! Perfect place for rambling and theorizing.
Again, you guys are amazing. Thanks. And thanks for the compliments about my name! I love all your names too.
I don’t like to offend anyone either (unless they’re truly a f*ckbag), which is why I tend to apologize for some of my spicier comments.
O U C H
now it’s not erin or alinua
it’s… KENDAL???
*holy fuck*
Poor Falst. i can see the expression of someone who has worked for ages for something, is almost there, and then it’s all being taken away in the space of a few minutes, and he’s powerless to stop it. This is made worse by the fact that we DON’T EVEN KNOW WHAT HE’S DOING WITH THE LACRIMA. No-one actually knows whether he created the chimera or not, they’re just assuming and then attacking him for it. I’m fairly sure alinua still thinks he made them, so she REALLY is not happy with that, and i feel like she would have broken more than his wrists given the chance.
Most likely, Falst was trying to make himself look human. See his motivation in Kendal conversation. It’s been mentioned just touching the rock will make physical forms twist up and go berserk, so probably a bunch of critters just touched the thing and got warped.
Of course it could just be that Red is pushing us down that one assumption, I have half the mind to be on the look out for Falst having some other plan than the one we, and collectively the floof squad, have assumed.
Last page’s comment section: Kendal is such a paragon, he’ll hug it out and talk about it with lion-boy.
This page’s comment section: O_O
To be fair to Kendal, Falst did make it clear, by words and actions, he’s not going to part with the lacrima willingly. So, extreme as the method may seem, he needs to be taken out of the fight. (He’s still conscious though so getting his side of the story is still possible)
Also leads into getting Alinua to tag out to deal with the lacrima, you can tell from the first panels she isn’t thinking straight when pressed with Kendal’s logic.
Also, imagine a Mass Effect renegade interrupt icon in panel 5 bellow Kendal’s eye.
You’re welcome.
Nooooo! Fast you needed Kendal on your side.
Don’t anger him further
so Falst just owned the Magus Elemental, held his own against a powered-up Alinua (and was possibly about to rake her face in), and Kendal walks on and destroys him with one hand
I’m scared
please run Falst
And just like that we’ve definitively crossed from possible negotiations to “confiscate the opposition’s ability to fight”.
Yeah, I’m not sure I’m willing to sit through another wrist-breaking
This IS someone who has the body of a god and is some kind of demigod themselves.
Falst may have genuine grievances and perhaps a relatively harmless intent with regards to the lacrima, but he’s already demonstrated, if not a total lack of empathy, at least a severely diminished empathy/care for those around him. At this point it really has gone too far, but though technically this is the first time Kendal has been in the this situation, he has the memories of Vash and a similar personality, I think we can trust him to make logical, humane decisions here.
Trope talks, Nemesis. Good guy Kendal is done messing around. I don’t think that they have know Falst long enough to count as a nemesis, but I think this is Kendal’s reaction here.
And on panel four we see that Kendal is literally holding the feral catboy in place by the fist. Why doesn’t he move…?
*Last panel loads* OH THAT’S WHY
Let this be a reminder not to miff Kendal the Floofy boi.
He also has possibly the most powerful Life mage on the planet with him. So there may be an element of “It’s OK, we can heal him later”.
My favorite thing about this whole fight is that cocky people get punished for their hubris and by the end Kendal is just tired of the bullshit and just won’t let him try to make his case anymore. He wanted to talk! He wanted to figure out a peaceful way to solve this! But Falst just keeps fighting, so a fight is what he’s gonna get, dirty tactics, no holds barred.
Falst made an inadequate fist. If he didn’t want his knuckles broke, he should’ve made a tighter fist!
That’s gonna smart in the morning >.>
Man Kendal does NOT fuck around
UM
U M
K E N D A L!!?
YOU F***ING WHAT!??
Disabling an enemy while the threat is dealt with. It’s not like they don’t have a healer in town that could fix it.
Ferin, like lion-boi here, are nearly immune to life magic. He can’t be healed by Alinua or Dr. Jolon. (Or by Erin, but he doesn’t seem to heal people anyway)
Ouch, That probably really hurt.
I wonder if Kendal felt okay with breaking Falst’s hand because he knows Alinua could heal it in less than a second, and he was trying to break through Falst’s rage fog. Though the question is then, will Alinua be willing to heal it? Either way, ouch.
It doesn’t matter because ferin can’t be healed by magic
Ah, true, I forgot about that. Though the extra lore page on Ferins mentions their sturdiness and ability to heal from injuries that would damage or kill other people, so maybe that’s the justification. Or maybe Kendel’s just being extreme in the moment and not thinking about that.
Please stop twisting the knife, Red.
Did he just crack his knuckles or break his bones?
Considering that Falst looks shocked as opposed to crying out in pain, I’m thinking he cracked his knuckles to show he can break his bones if he’s forced to.
I swear to gods, I was starting to really not stand Falst because of how self-righteous he is, and didn’t want to comment because he does have good reason to not be pleasant, but.
Need to steal from a mage, because you’re too ostracized to have a chance to obtain materials otherwise? That’s awful, and understandable. Said Mage getting upset? Also understandable. You going on an enormous, insulting rant, about how as the whole world is out to get you, those who go against you are pompous, small minded fools who don’t understand, and deserve whatever you decide to do with them once you get frustrated? Uhhhhh…
I don’t think we have any real reason to think Falst isn’t the one making the chimeras. I mean, how OOC would it be for him to be making those as anatomical experiments, and not care about what happens to those at all, since their suffering doesn’t hold a candle to his.
What I’m trying to say here is I’m glad those monologues weren’t meant to be likable, and I’m *really* glad Kendal’s cutting him off.
Agreed. I personally believe Falst isn’t responsible for the chimeras but seeing his actions, methods and dialogue I can’t rule that possibility out either. Red’s storytelling and character work is keeping me guessing.
Same. Falst might not be a big bad, but he’s certainly not a nice guy either. He also slashed Kendall and knocked him off a tree, which would have been potentially fatal had he not been Kendall. As Falst didn’t know what he is, there’s really no reason for Alinua or Erin to give him the benefit of the doubt now. And his attitude when Kendal tried talking it out didn’t suggest he was willing to hear any opinion other than his own. Kendall tried being nice, now he needs to make Falst stop attacking and listen.
Well… how would he make the Chimeras? Unless I overlooked something, Ferin are supposedly unable to become mages. Is he making the Chimeras by rubbing it against the animals that get mutated? Is he holding onto it for someone else?
I agree but… The whole world kind of IS out to get him. I know how frustrating it can be when people don’t understand you or your point of view, and I haven’t been ostracised from society like Falst has. He’s probably never had any friends, he doesn’t appear to have any family (at least, not anymore). He’s probably lonely and resentful on a scale we can’t even comprehend. And that is precisely the problem.
As for creating the chimerae? No, I don’t think it would be out of character, but I just don’t know how he would do it. We don’t know how long he’s had the lacrima, and even if he’s had it a good while, he only managed to steal mage’s materials recently. Could he have used the lacrima without Erin’s stuff? There’s just too much we don’t know and I’m not going to assume he’s guilty until it’s proven.
Everyone freaking out about how Kendal be mad boi now, but honestly I don’t think he’s angry. Just disappointed.
I mean, just look at his face in the last panel. That is the face of someone who is 100% done with these shenanigans.
Agreed. That’s the face of someone who knows they need to deescalate the situation before someone gets killed or maimed.
How is he going to join the party if his hand is in pieces?
He’s got two hasn’t he?
Well that’s one way to shut someone up
Oooh! The good old “I’ve been holding back this whole time and could kill you anytime I like”. I wonder if we’ll get a World of Cardboard-speech from Kendal too…
Can life magic make someone a different species? Maybe Falst wanted to turn himself human because he won’t get accepted as a ferin.
Noooooooo why can’t we all be friends…
Red is watching us all freak out isn’t she
“I’m not angry, just disappointed. “
Everyone here is talking about Falst may not have been making the Chimeras, how brutal Kendal is being, and how Falst must feel like everything is being taken away from him, but here’s one notable thing that probably surprised Falst more than anything: Kendal broke his wrist. It’s not the pain that would surprise him, it’s the surprise, surprise that someone had the strength to not only pull that off, but do it nearly effortlessly, to break the wrist of a race of people with incredible strength and durability, a people whom you would have better luck pushing down a deeply rooted century old tree than breaking the bones of those people. No one should be capable of doing something like what Kendal did, it goes against everything Falst knows. Yet here Kendal is. Pulling it off.
The power of sheer protagonisty gumption at work, everyone!
*laughs nervously*
Actually, I think it’s the power of godly hand muscles.
Can someone from the Aurora Discord *please* make this a server quote
There’s an Aurora Discord? *cue puppy eyes*
Yup! You should come and join us! *chucks link at you*
https://discord.gg/46C9XMr
Here ya go
I was rather expecting something like that to happen eventually. That’s just how it goes when a guy strong enough to beat down twenty foot tall stone golems winds up fighting someone regular person sized.
Not even regular person sized. Like, 2/3 regular person sized and 3x regular person strength.
Ooooooo, Kendal just became assertive.
Imagine just saying “Stop” then breaking someones wrist lmao
Bad kitty
This is in reply to Lazuul’s comment (in case it doesn’t show up in the right place):
For all we know this could be the start of a longer term nemesis situation, perhaps Red is purposefully breaking the trope a bit, having Kendal realise (to some extent) what’s going on fairly earlier, but then perhaps–maybe out of guilt–later sympathizing with Falst?
ouch
TL;DR: Floofy girl GTFOs. In other news, a CRACK sound effect that doesn’t spell certain doom.
Yikes, Kendal is badass when he wants to be!
Alt text: oooooooh
Red: “some day, a CRACK will be good”
Also Red:
Image source: stop
(Well, that’ll do. Oof large)
So began Red’s war on Falst’s bones.
Kendal has just come to terms with the implications of having two powerful healers in the party: “no lasting damage” is the exact same threshold as “not technically lethal”. He hasn’t stopped being nice, he’s stopped taking risks by playing with this enemy. I’m sure broken bones will heal up fine.