Wasn’t thalassophobia part of why Dainix started exploding aboard the Deathtrap in the first place? We may soon learn more about why.
I also remember Tahraim mentioning having seen soulfire burn at the bottom of the ocean on 1.16.7. If my theory of Tahraim having been a crucible before becoming a god if correct, I sense a divine-intervention-transmutation-mentoring session coming our way…
. “Everything we need went down with the ship,” Erin says, pushing some grasses aside to look onto the beach.
. “So you’re saying we’re stuck,” Tess says, arms crossed.
. “Just the opposite,” Erin responds, raising a finger. “Everything we need is STILL down there. Tools, weapons, lacrimas — even my old sealing jewelry would let me cast safely again. One spellbird could lead us to Alinua — and with just a single lacrima I can spellcarve a way to get us all off this island safely and quietly.”
. “And it’s all at the bottom of the ocean,” Tess reminds him.
. “And I can still cast Water magic!” Erin protests, turning to face her. “I can get down there!”
. “The wreck wasn’t far from shore…” Kendal remembers.
. “And I shouldn’t stay surfaced anyway. Those spellbirds can track me anywhere on the island,” Erin says, ticking things off on his fingers. “But if I enclose myself in a bubble and keep the air fresh with a small Fire transmutation–”
. “Then when you lose focus, you die! This is a terrible plan!” Tess snaps, throwing out her arms. “In fact, it’s the SAME terrible plan that shipwrecked us in the first place!”
. “As far as we know, the sea monster was NOT my fault.”
. “You thought you could magically brute-force your way through a storm!”
. “This is a much simpler problem!”
. “You’re right. This is a terrible plan,” Dainix interrupts. Falst looks at him, anxious and confused, as the Ignan continues, “Unfortunately, I think we still have to do it. And I think I have to go with you.
Finally done with this haha. I was stuck on Falst’s face and kept forgetting and also didn’t have a lot of time as I was travelling… anyway, I’ll hopefully be able to catch up now
Oh no he said the plan lol
I’ve noticed that some people talk about the paladins as if they’re evil/actively malicious, and I’d be interested to hear why anyone that this applies to thinks that way about them. I personally think of them more as antagonists than villains, as their goal is literally to save the planet from the dragon that will definitely destroy the planet killing absolutely everyone if it breaks free. I want to see them outwitted/beaten by our heroes, but I don’t feel a ton of animosity towards the group as a whole, or even to any great degree towards any important members yet. However, I’d like to understand others people perspective! So, if you hate the Light Paladins, why is that?
You’re right, the paladins have a good motive and the rank and file are just…….people, not some monsters with a malicious ideology or something. But they’re willing to sacrifice all of morals and kindness and other such virtues to single-mindedly pursue this task to kill erin, who is a victim of the void dragon rather than a complying vessel. But they don’t see that do they? They are so caught up in their good cause that they’re unable to see the horrific acts they are willing to commit as means to an end, unable to see even the most basic of truths. This is just my opinion, but this also a way to show that actions aren’t always justified by the end goal, no matter how noble the goal may be, an atrocity committed in the name of a greater good is STILL an atrocity. This is also painfully relevant in some real world scenarios and that’s why people are quite inflamed by this. Anyways, one of my favorite things about this comic is kendal, more specifically his code of “nobody dies, not for me, not ever. How I could help the dead (or anyone rather) by sacrificing the living?” The paladins are an incredibly difficult subject to untangle due the factors mentioned. Man, this comic is really good.
That’s a good point. While I don’t personally think that way (I think that what they’re doing isn’t *right*, and i don’t want them to succeed, but I think that from their perspective its like choosing to switch the tracks on the trolley problem. It doesn’t seem to me to be a direct parallel to real life, since I can’t really think of any circumstances when someone could destroy all life on Earth while being completely innocent themself), that’s a really good reason for people to dislike them, thank you!
I see a pretty important difference between the real-life parallels and the paladins though; as far as they/we know, the paladins are actually right. Erin *is* possessed by an evil spirit who seems to want to devour the world and is demonstrably powerful in some way, and with that risk, the safest thing to do *is* to kill him ASAP.
I obviously don’t want them to do that, because I like Erin and suspect the story will have a few more surprising reveals on this subject, but from the information they have, they’re doing the right thing. Unlike real life bad guys who do atrocities because of lies or for racist/selfish/bad reasons, they’re literally doing the thing that seems most likely to save the world.
Yeah, exactly!! What makes the paladins so interesting is that they are literally correct with the information they have! While that does lead them to do some pretty crappy things (and that one random mook definitely didn’t need to try to coup de gracie Falst), they literally are trying to kill 1-5 people in order to save the actual whole world. And the Paladin leadership clearly doesn’t want to do it- at least Stefan seems regretful of basically everything that is happening (Stefan specifically acknowledging how young Erin is in the Interlude). The’ve been given a trolley problem on a massive scale, but instead of pulling a lever, they’re sending 40 dragons.
The big concern for me and the Paladins morality is if they start making bigger sacrifices, like damaging the island and the Ignans. Which so far they haven’t suggested that. (im a paladin defender yall they are the definition of hero antagonists and that is so Interesting)
While the Paladins aren’t directly malicious, they’re certainly filling the slot of “Evil Empire” at the moment, tropes-wise, being the only organised military force of faceless goons we’ve encountered so far. Those few Paladins we do know are a mixed bag. Theia and Priora seem nice enough, but this Lord Stefan and even Tam himself, not so much.
It’s not as cut-and-dry as ‘they’re trying to kill Erin so they’re evil’. In fact, I do like the nuance we’ve seen so far. But what I don’t like about these two Paladins and the Paladins in general is that they’re so high on their own sanctimony that they have no reservations about going in guns-blazing and killing anyone who gets in their way.
Tam had a whole character moment about this on the boat, and ultimately chose to sacrifice innocent lives to achieve his goal (but handily asked the Lady to do it for him, which doesn’t absolve him of responsibility in my mind). Meanwhile, Lord Stefan seems almost… tired about the whole ordeal of killing Erin. I don’t think he’s happy about killing anyone, but that hasn’t changed anything, and his soldiers have already attempted to kill Falst just to ‘thin their numbers’.
Essentially, I don’t like them for all the reasons one wouldn’t like a global theocratic military. They’re the complete opposite of the Floof Squad in so many ways; no individuality, no ‘democratic’ process, and no reservations about morality. They decide what’s right and then quote their own religion to justify it, and because their religion is objectively real, they’re even less reasonable with opposition.
this is something that has been annoying me so much, the paladins objectively want the same as the floof squad just have a different method of achieving it because they dont think separating erin from the dragon is possible yet people treat them as if they were the biggest villains in the story, people recently were theorizing on them making a partnership with the collector of all people even tho that made no sense
Probably not, but the idea of the Collector somehow approaching the Paladins like “Would you like me to kill your Elemental Magus if I can have the blond prettyboy swordsman he’s with after he’s dead” is highly entertaining/interesting to me. Are you sure they’d say “no”?
Exactly! I don’t think the paladins are great/right, so I don’t mind when people dislike them (i personally dont hate them, but i dont like them either), but it irks me when people make them out as worse than they are. It could be that they *turn out to be* worse than they currently seem, and I’m completely willing to change my mind about them if they happens (for example, my opinion of them is worsened by the suggestion that they’ve targeted elemental magi who *dont* have the void dragon possessing them), but i don’t think they’re ‘villains’ by any means currently.
Yeah, the collector theory is a bit confusing — their primary motivation is stopping the planet being destroyed and everyone being killed, they’re probably not going to make a deal with someone *else* who wants to destroy the planet (unless they were planning on double crossing her, but they feel a bit too proud to do that). I could totally buy that they would make a deal with her if they didn’t know her goal, though.
They seem very “ends justify the means”.
It was inidcated they killed several Elemental Magi in the past. Like they are actively hunting them, to prevent anyone from getting into the storm.
My final judgement depends on how many eggs they are willing to crack to make that Omlette.
Would they threaten the underwater or volcano people to get their way?
Or are they the kind that just throws eggs against a wall, with no intention of even cooking?
Speaking as a consequentialist myself, who considers moral reasoning akin to theirs to be right and proper — there is one thing that tips them from misguided into outright villainy for me, and that is their flat refusal to consider that there could be another way. It’s not just that they are prepared to kill innocents — from their point of view, this saves far more innocents than it kills (all innocents everywhere on their planet, in point of fact), and I would hold them as morally responsible for any innocents they failed to save as for those they killed directly. That is not the problem. No, the problem is their blind certainty that theirs is the only way. They take as fact, as absolute, immutable fact, that, and I quote, “His power over you will only grow. Your heart and mind will wither against him until only your hunger remains. Your world will shrink into irrelevancy and incomprehension as he erodes you from within. There are no principles a mortal can hold fast in the face of eternal, unending hunger. You will break, and then he will use you to break the world.” (page 2.3.6)
They have decided in advance, without investigation, without even asking preliminary questions, that resistance to the Void Dragon is futile, and all that can be done is murder. The standard for right action in consequentialist terms is not that it has better consequences than some other, single, arbitrarily selected choice. It is that it has the best total consequences out of all choices you could have made in the circumstances. I would not hold them morally responsible for what they could never have known, but the knowledge that was in their grasp if they but reached for it? The things they should have known but chose not to? That reflects on them very badly indeed. They frame this as a trolley problem, but not only is it not a trolley problem, it is knowable that it is not. There is a better choice that they refuse to investigate in even the most cursory manner. That is profoundly immoral. Monstrous, even. It is not their goals that make them villains in my eyes. It is their a priori certainty that they already know everything that could possibly be relevant.
Even if Erin has a 99% chance of being able to deal with it fine, the consequentialist view would still be to kill him, right? The point is not that the paladins don’t know that Erin could seal off the Void Dragon, they’re just unwilling to risk it.
Yeah, this is how I see it! I don’t agree with their choice, but i understand them taking the ‘safe’ option rather than risking the entire world in the hopes of not killing a few people.
So far as I can see, they don’t just seem to not know, they seem to refuse to consider the possibility. If they simply weren’t willing to take the risk, then I would be much more inclined to agree with you. However, there are several things that should very much raise questions for them, and they shrug it off as irrelevant. Why is he here, in the middle of the ocean? How has he fought off the Void Dragon’s influence up to this point? What is this swordsman whose mind cannot be held by the Light Dragon? Where did that blast of power he unleashed come from? What is that creature of fire that tore through the champion’s shields? Why did the binding of its (keep in mind this pronoun is from the paladins’ perspective) mind not halt it?
Tam would not take even a minute to listen to an explanation when the squad were eager to give it, and where Kendal is talking instead of fighting whenever and wherever he gets the upper hand. That’s not “we can’t risk it.” That’s “you could not possibly have any even slightly relevant information that we don’t.” It’s willful ignorance. I am fully confident in rendering moral judgment of one who would claim to make the hard moral choices while refusing to learn relevant information. Clinging to preconceived notions here is immoral, and I feel no compunctions about saying so. Of course, the paladins could also change. They could back off and reassess, in which case my evaluation would change. I am prepared to change my assessment if circumstances warrant it. However, at this point, this is the assessment that is warranted, entirely by their refusal to learn.
The world’s full of ideologies and other rhetoric that paints the world, and especially human behavior, in simplistic, black-and-white terms: if you’re not with us, you’re against us. If something isn’t good, it’s bad. If you’re trying to stop me, you hate me. It makes the world seem like an easier place to understand, and it makes people easier to keep close and under one’s control. It’s really hard, nowadays, not to get conditioned to think that way.
Oh yeah!! That’s so cool, I completely forgot about that!!! Does he have good enough control for that, do you think? He’s only purposely transmuted once before, and he had The Power of Love (and a god) helping him that time.
Exactly! Because what was way too stupid originally – at least a large part of it – was Erin doing literally everything alone.
That can make it a slightly less terrible plan.
Pros: Dainix has the fireseed (does that increase Crucible state or just help concentration?) which will help, him transmuting allows Erin to focus better, Erin cant be tracked by paladins underwater, they could get their stuff back, they’ll probably run into Alinua and the merfolk (though they dont know that one), and Erin changed his mindset about working alone probably!
Cons: Dainix isn’t too experienced transmuting materials, casting water hurts Erin, I’m pretty sure Dainix has hydrophobia or something, they would be leaving Tess Kendal and Falst with the 40 dragons, what if the Paladins have water dragons, and likely many other factors that we have no way of predicting
Tell me if I missed anything! Also, does using fire transmutation mean that they’re turning stale air into fresh air with fire? nothing gets burned up like in the dungeon? Just wondering, cuz Dainix said that he couldn’t transmute between elements, so how does fire help them keep breathing?
Well, Dainix wouldn’t be transmuting elements; he’d be transmuting deoxygenated Wind into oxygenated Wind, which is fair game as far as we know. Something something “bringing out an element’s hidden potential”.
Also Dainix probably can’t swim. But then, Kendal and Tess are made of metal and Falst is barely standing.
At least we know why Dainix and Erin are together in the Chapter cover, although it still looks like Erin will be doing the Fire Transmutation, judging by that fireball he’s holding. Interested to see what Dainix’s exact reasoning will be. Also suggests that the rest of the team will be splitting up; I really hope they’re going to find Falst a safe place to rest while Tess and Kendal draw the Paladins away.
Incidentially, SCATTER fully looks more like an album cover than a chapter cover, but I’m living for it.
Not sure if we can blame the surprise Paladin on Erin either. Though the easy to track sky beam probably didn’t help. Nor telling the paladins his name.
He DOES need to breathe while fighting or exerting himself though, and moving through water could involve exertion. It’s too big a risk to send him underwater having no real certainty of what he needs to survive.
Not currently in a weakened state? He got blown up by Tam’s skybeam pretty recently, before “fighting” volcano guy falst literally had to hold him up because he could barely stand, he hasn’t gotten healing since and I’m pretty sure it’s only been a couple days at most
Erin: Really? YOU are lecturing ME not to magically brute force my way though problems. Tess: … Do as I say, not as I do.
I knew salvaging Erin’s bag was going to be important for it’s supplies, but sealing jewellery is new. It does make sense though that a) Erin, a noble, would have his early sealing runes in the form of jewellery, and b) he would hold onto them even after being tattooed as a backup if the tats are damaged.
Still, something tells me that they will only be a stopgap and his powers are still going to be limited, assuming they can even find them.
Ah, I was wondering how the barrier between land and sea would be breached. This plan does sound pretty bad with their current knowledge, but if Erin and Dainix find Alinua and learn of her allies, it may turn out to be a good one in hindsight. Who knows? Maybe they’ll get lucky and find her already at the boat, salvaging what she can with her new friends.
Note Dainix’s phasing; “have” to come with you, not want. Is he trying to keep well away from the Paladins due to the danger of Light-to-Void transmutation? Does he want to handle the fire transmutation bit to reduce the strain on Erin? Or is he driven by a sense of guilt, as his fear of water triggering his powers was the first domino that led to their current predicament?
I wonder how Erin will react to Alinua’s flesh-shaping? We’ve established that Asera forbids that technique, and Erin was aggressive enough with Jolon to suggest that he agrees. I’m sure he’ll be fascinated, but I wonder if he’ll approve.
I think an important distinction here is that she flesh-shaped herself; Dr. Jolon twisted innocent creatures against their will and bent them to his will. Flesh shaping yourself is probably still illegal because it’s stupid, but it’s much less ethically dubious.
Along with what others have said, Erin already knows that both Alinua and Life hate chimeras and would never inflict flesh-shaping on others (Northern Wyrm notwithstanding but that’s a very different context). He’s also seen Alinua/Life make a plant colossus while out cold and has been musing whether Alinua, being Life’s Chosen, even can die.
Erin knows that Alinua/Life would never flesh-shape unless under very select circumstances, and if there was anyone on the planet who could pull off flesh-shaping in an ethical and safe manner, it’s her.
At least we know why Dainix and Erin are together in the Chapter cover, although it still looks like Erin will be doing the Fire Transmutation, judging by that fireball he’s holding. Interested to see what Dainix’s exact reasoning will be. Also suggests that the rest of the team will be splitting up; I really hope they’re going to find Falst a safe place to rest while Tess and Kendal draw the Paladins away.
Incidentally, SCATTER fully looks more like an album cover than a chapter cover, but I’m living for it.
“I have seen soulfire burn at the bottom of the Ocean.” – Tahraim
So we know Dainix doesn’t need saving if things get tough.
Dainix is also utterly immune to the Dragon, should he try anything.
Can’t let Erin go alone.
Can’t give Erin anyone he needs to protect from the elements or the Dragon, because then he does stupid things.
Dainix fits both criteria.
“As far as we know, the sea monster was NOT my fault,” like he’s still open to the possibility that it somehow was is probably my favourite line on this page XD And to be fair, without the monster, the appearance of Tam, and Dainix accidentally setting the boat on fire, he may have been able to brute force the storm. The problem is that a) he never leaves any wiggle room for the unexpected, b) he’s still trying to take on everything himself, and c) he forgets that the universe has it in for him in particular.
I love when a whole bunch of theories/questions/threads are answered in a single page. And (I assume) everyone who has been waiting since “Good thing we’re not going down there” is kicking their feet in delight. I know I am. (Dainix, I presume, is not.)
Oh dear.
Agreed with Dainix: it’s a terrible plan, they need to do it, and it makes sense for Dainix to go since he has the power to transmute via soulfire.
It does sound like they’re planning to split up the party again. Falst looks, justifiably, extremely unhappy about this… or maybe particularly unhappy about Dainix putting himself in peril. Again. After Falst thought he was dead and braved a volcano to save him, then saw him get slammed by a paladin attack, and all that.
it may be a terrible plan, but this page is a wonderful birthday present for me because we get the Floof Squad back!! (most of them, anyway, but still glad to see them as always!)
thank you all for the birthday wishes!! and you both are so right about the extra gifts of this page hahahaha, I love a good Terrible Idea and some good dramatic fashion choices (intentional or not)!
A bubble? You mean the exact lacrima falst had and was actively using in his hand while trying to get Dainix off the ship? Could be easier than we thought?
How do they get to the water? Down the cliff, past the ARMY, and out to the ocean without getting cought. This seems like a recipe for disaster. Also, the rule of: If they say the plan, the plan won’t work. I have a feeling last panel was FORESHADOWING!
I love how Erin’s powerset is both simultaneously powerful yet fragile. He can in theory do anything but in practice he is limited by factors outside his control and what he didn’t prepare for.
Hmmmmm… Falst is injured here, was injured in the volcano, was injured on the ship and in Argist (“I was tactical, lefty only”), was quite injured in the ancient laboratory with Dainix. Trying to remember if Falst broke any bokes in the Tynan fight. His last time fully healed may have been after jumping off the prison in Zuurith with Alinua (“Do you know how many of your BONES I just HEALED?”)!
More and more of things, that were said in chapter 2.2 (Waves) are coming true:
Falst feeling exposed on the open ocean -> they get attacked by Tam,
Alinua wanting to meet a mermaid -> Chapter 2.5 happens,
and now now Dainix: “it’s a good thing we won’t be going down there.” -> “This is a terrible plan. […] I think I have to go with you.”
Foreshadowing is a literary device that we love to recognize! Thanks for pointing these out, I didn’t remember the quotes, I think it’s time for another reread 🙂
did he really say he plans to unsink the ship
Sounds more like he’s gonna salvage their gear from it.
I dunno, it is Erin we’re talking about. He might be planning “unsink” XD
Or uplift the seabed around the ship. As a bonus, the resulting tsunami should take care of the paladins.
He doesn’t have Stone magic right now! This is a terrible plan!
No, he is clearly just trying to salvage.
And he might run into a wild Alinua down there.
I think Dainix might have melted it too much to float but knowing our crew anything is possible
well also on 2-3-42, we can see that the ship is no longer intact, so….
it’d use a lot more magic than tess will allow to get it back in functioning order
Remember when Dainix used to say “good thing we’re not going down there”? Good old times.
Oh no, poor dainix 😭
Wasn’t thalassophobia part of why Dainix started exploding aboard the Deathtrap in the first place? We may soon learn more about why.
I also remember Tahraim mentioning having seen soulfire burn at the bottom of the ocean on 1.16.7. If my theory of Tahraim having been a crucible before becoming a god if correct, I sense a divine-intervention-transmutation-mentoring session coming our way…
For mobile readers.
Alt-text: you’re right, that IS a terrible plan!
Image source: plan
Tumblr text: Sometimes a bad plan is better than no plan at all
Bluesky text: Good morning!
. “Everything we need went down with the ship,” Erin says, pushing some grasses aside to look onto the beach.
. “So you’re saying we’re stuck,” Tess says, arms crossed.
. “Just the opposite,” Erin responds, raising a finger. “Everything we need is STILL down there. Tools, weapons, lacrimas — even my old sealing jewelry would let me cast safely again. One spellbird could lead us to Alinua — and with just a single lacrima I can spellcarve a way to get us all off this island safely and quietly.”
. “And it’s all at the bottom of the ocean,” Tess reminds him.
. “And I can still cast Water magic!” Erin protests, turning to face her. “I can get down there!”
. “The wreck wasn’t far from shore…” Kendal remembers.
. “And I shouldn’t stay surfaced anyway. Those spellbirds can track me anywhere on the island,” Erin says, ticking things off on his fingers. “But if I enclose myself in a bubble and keep the air fresh with a small Fire transmutation–”
. “Then when you lose focus, you die! This is a terrible plan!” Tess snaps, throwing out her arms. “In fact, it’s the SAME terrible plan that shipwrecked us in the first place!”
. “As far as we know, the sea monster was NOT my fault.”
. “You thought you could magically brute-force your way through a storm!”
. “This is a much simpler problem!”
. “You’re right. This is a terrible plan,” Dainix interrupts. Falst looks at him, anxious and confused, as the Ignan continues, “Unfortunately, I think we still have to do it. And I think I have to go with you.
Finally done with this haha. I was stuck on Falst’s face and kept forgetting and also didn’t have a lot of time as I was travelling… anyway, I’ll hopefully be able to catch up now
Oh no he said the plan lol
I’ve noticed that some people talk about the paladins as if they’re evil/actively malicious, and I’d be interested to hear why anyone that this applies to thinks that way about them. I personally think of them more as antagonists than villains, as their goal is literally to save the planet from the dragon that will definitely destroy the planet killing absolutely everyone if it breaks free. I want to see them outwitted/beaten by our heroes, but I don’t feel a ton of animosity towards the group as a whole, or even to any great degree towards any important members yet. However, I’d like to understand others people perspective! So, if you hate the Light Paladins, why is that?
You’re right, the paladins have a good motive and the rank and file are just…….people, not some monsters with a malicious ideology or something. But they’re willing to sacrifice all of morals and kindness and other such virtues to single-mindedly pursue this task to kill erin, who is a victim of the void dragon rather than a complying vessel. But they don’t see that do they? They are so caught up in their good cause that they’re unable to see the horrific acts they are willing to commit as means to an end, unable to see even the most basic of truths. This is just my opinion, but this also a way to show that actions aren’t always justified by the end goal, no matter how noble the goal may be, an atrocity committed in the name of a greater good is STILL an atrocity. This is also painfully relevant in some real world scenarios and that’s why people are quite inflamed by this. Anyways, one of my favorite things about this comic is kendal, more specifically his code of “nobody dies, not for me, not ever. How I could help the dead (or anyone rather) by sacrificing the living?” The paladins are an incredibly difficult subject to untangle due the factors mentioned. Man, this comic is really good.
That’s a good point. While I don’t personally think that way (I think that what they’re doing isn’t *right*, and i don’t want them to succeed, but I think that from their perspective its like choosing to switch the tracks on the trolley problem. It doesn’t seem to me to be a direct parallel to real life, since I can’t really think of any circumstances when someone could destroy all life on Earth while being completely innocent themself), that’s a really good reason for people to dislike them, thank you!
Yup it is really good.
I see a pretty important difference between the real-life parallels and the paladins though; as far as they/we know, the paladins are actually right. Erin *is* possessed by an evil spirit who seems to want to devour the world and is demonstrably powerful in some way, and with that risk, the safest thing to do *is* to kill him ASAP.
I obviously don’t want them to do that, because I like Erin and suspect the story will have a few more surprising reveals on this subject, but from the information they have, they’re doing the right thing. Unlike real life bad guys who do atrocities because of lies or for racist/selfish/bad reasons, they’re literally doing the thing that seems most likely to save the world.
Yeah, exactly!! What makes the paladins so interesting is that they are literally correct with the information they have! While that does lead them to do some pretty crappy things (and that one random mook definitely didn’t need to try to coup de gracie Falst), they literally are trying to kill 1-5 people in order to save the actual whole world. And the Paladin leadership clearly doesn’t want to do it- at least Stefan seems regretful of basically everything that is happening (Stefan specifically acknowledging how young Erin is in the Interlude). The’ve been given a trolley problem on a massive scale, but instead of pulling a lever, they’re sending 40 dragons.
The big concern for me and the Paladins morality is if they start making bigger sacrifices, like damaging the island and the Ignans. Which so far they haven’t suggested that. (im a paladin defender yall they are the definition of hero antagonists and that is so Interesting)
This is precisely how I feel about them!
While the Paladins aren’t directly malicious, they’re certainly filling the slot of “Evil Empire” at the moment, tropes-wise, being the only organised military force of faceless goons we’ve encountered so far. Those few Paladins we do know are a mixed bag. Theia and Priora seem nice enough, but this Lord Stefan and even Tam himself, not so much.
It’s not as cut-and-dry as ‘they’re trying to kill Erin so they’re evil’. In fact, I do like the nuance we’ve seen so far. But what I don’t like about these two Paladins and the Paladins in general is that they’re so high on their own sanctimony that they have no reservations about going in guns-blazing and killing anyone who gets in their way.
Tam had a whole character moment about this on the boat, and ultimately chose to sacrifice innocent lives to achieve his goal (but handily asked the Lady to do it for him, which doesn’t absolve him of responsibility in my mind). Meanwhile, Lord Stefan seems almost… tired about the whole ordeal of killing Erin. I don’t think he’s happy about killing anyone, but that hasn’t changed anything, and his soldiers have already attempted to kill Falst just to ‘thin their numbers’.
Essentially, I don’t like them for all the reasons one wouldn’t like a global theocratic military. They’re the complete opposite of the Floof Squad in so many ways; no individuality, no ‘democratic’ process, and no reservations about morality. They decide what’s right and then quote their own religion to justify it, and because their religion is objectively real, they’re even less reasonable with opposition.
this is something that has been annoying me so much, the paladins objectively want the same as the floof squad just have a different method of achieving it because they dont think separating erin from the dragon is possible yet people treat them as if they were the biggest villains in the story, people recently were theorizing on them making a partnership with the collector of all people even tho that made no sense
Probably not, but the idea of the Collector somehow approaching the Paladins like “Would you like me to kill your Elemental Magus if I can have the blond prettyboy swordsman he’s with after he’s dead” is highly entertaining/interesting to me. Are you sure they’d say “no”?
Exactly! I don’t think the paladins are great/right, so I don’t mind when people dislike them (i personally dont hate them, but i dont like them either), but it irks me when people make them out as worse than they are. It could be that they *turn out to be* worse than they currently seem, and I’m completely willing to change my mind about them if they happens (for example, my opinion of them is worsened by the suggestion that they’ve targeted elemental magi who *dont* have the void dragon possessing them), but i don’t think they’re ‘villains’ by any means currently.
Yeah, the collector theory is a bit confusing — their primary motivation is stopping the planet being destroyed and everyone being killed, they’re probably not going to make a deal with someone *else* who wants to destroy the planet (unless they were planning on double crossing her, but they feel a bit too proud to do that). I could totally buy that they would make a deal with her if they didn’t know her goal, though.
They seem very “ends justify the means”.
It was inidcated they killed several Elemental Magi in the past. Like they are actively hunting them, to prevent anyone from getting into the storm.
My final judgement depends on how many eggs they are willing to crack to make that Omlette.
Would they threaten the underwater or volcano people to get their way?
Or are they the kind that just throws eggs against a wall, with no intention of even cooking?
Speaking as a consequentialist myself, who considers moral reasoning akin to theirs to be right and proper — there is one thing that tips them from misguided into outright villainy for me, and that is their flat refusal to consider that there could be another way. It’s not just that they are prepared to kill innocents — from their point of view, this saves far more innocents than it kills (all innocents everywhere on their planet, in point of fact), and I would hold them as morally responsible for any innocents they failed to save as for those they killed directly. That is not the problem. No, the problem is their blind certainty that theirs is the only way. They take as fact, as absolute, immutable fact, that, and I quote, “His power over you will only grow. Your heart and mind will wither against him until only your hunger remains. Your world will shrink into irrelevancy and incomprehension as he erodes you from within. There are no principles a mortal can hold fast in the face of eternal, unending hunger. You will break, and then he will use you to break the world.” (page 2.3.6)
They have decided in advance, without investigation, without even asking preliminary questions, that resistance to the Void Dragon is futile, and all that can be done is murder. The standard for right action in consequentialist terms is not that it has better consequences than some other, single, arbitrarily selected choice. It is that it has the best total consequences out of all choices you could have made in the circumstances. I would not hold them morally responsible for what they could never have known, but the knowledge that was in their grasp if they but reached for it? The things they should have known but chose not to? That reflects on them very badly indeed. They frame this as a trolley problem, but not only is it not a trolley problem, it is knowable that it is not. There is a better choice that they refuse to investigate in even the most cursory manner. That is profoundly immoral. Monstrous, even. It is not their goals that make them villains in my eyes. It is their a priori certainty that they already know everything that could possibly be relevant.
Even if Erin has a 99% chance of being able to deal with it fine, the consequentialist view would still be to kill him, right? The point is not that the paladins don’t know that Erin could seal off the Void Dragon, they’re just unwilling to risk it.
Yeah, this is how I see it! I don’t agree with their choice, but i understand them taking the ‘safe’ option rather than risking the entire world in the hopes of not killing a few people.
So far as I can see, they don’t just seem to not know, they seem to refuse to consider the possibility. If they simply weren’t willing to take the risk, then I would be much more inclined to agree with you. However, there are several things that should very much raise questions for them, and they shrug it off as irrelevant. Why is he here, in the middle of the ocean? How has he fought off the Void Dragon’s influence up to this point? What is this swordsman whose mind cannot be held by the Light Dragon? Where did that blast of power he unleashed come from? What is that creature of fire that tore through the champion’s shields? Why did the binding of its (keep in mind this pronoun is from the paladins’ perspective) mind not halt it?
Tam would not take even a minute to listen to an explanation when the squad were eager to give it, and where Kendal is talking instead of fighting whenever and wherever he gets the upper hand. That’s not “we can’t risk it.” That’s “you could not possibly have any even slightly relevant information that we don’t.” It’s willful ignorance. I am fully confident in rendering moral judgment of one who would claim to make the hard moral choices while refusing to learn relevant information. Clinging to preconceived notions here is immoral, and I feel no compunctions about saying so. Of course, the paladins could also change. They could back off and reassess, in which case my evaluation would change. I am prepared to change my assessment if circumstances warrant it. However, at this point, this is the assessment that is warranted, entirely by their refusal to learn.
The world’s full of ideologies and other rhetoric that paints the world, and especially human behavior, in simplistic, black-and-white terms: if you’re not with us, you’re against us. If something isn’t good, it’s bad. If you’re trying to stop me, you hate me. It makes the world seem like an easier place to understand, and it makes people easier to keep close and under one’s control. It’s really hard, nowadays, not to get conditioned to think that way.
This is a terrible plan, but its also just a terrible situation so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Hope Erin doesn’t die. Also, why does Dainix specifically need to come??!?! It could be perfectly logical, but its making me nervous for some reason
Dainix can transmute the air so Erin won’t have to concentrate on that.
Oh yeah!! That’s so cool, I completely forgot about that!!! Does he have good enough control for that, do you think? He’s only purposely transmuted once before, and he had The Power of Love (and a god) helping him that time.
Exactly! Because what was way too stupid originally – at least a large part of it – was Erin doing literally everything alone.
That can make it a slightly less terrible plan.
Pros: Dainix has the fireseed (does that increase Crucible state or just help concentration?) which will help, him transmuting allows Erin to focus better, Erin cant be tracked by paladins underwater, they could get their stuff back, they’ll probably run into Alinua and the merfolk (though they dont know that one), and Erin changed his mindset about working alone probably!
Cons: Dainix isn’t too experienced transmuting materials, casting water hurts Erin, I’m pretty sure Dainix has hydrophobia or something, they would be leaving Tess Kendal and Falst with the 40 dragons, what if the Paladins have water dragons, and likely many other factors that we have no way of predicting
Tell me if I missed anything! Also, does using fire transmutation mean that they’re turning stale air into fresh air with fire? nothing gets burned up like in the dungeon? Just wondering, cuz Dainix said that he couldn’t transmute between elements, so how does fire help them keep breathing?
Well, Dainix wouldn’t be transmuting elements; he’d be transmuting deoxygenated Wind into oxygenated Wind, which is fair game as far as we know. Something something “bringing out an element’s hidden potential”.
Also Dainix probably can’t swim. But then, Kendal and Tess are made of metal and Falst is barely standing.
Am I the first one?
Oh golly me it’s Dainix
Does it fall to me?
Nothing can go wrong. We foresee no consequences
OH NO , HE SAID THE PLAN OUT LOUD. NOW ITS GONNA FAIL!
Hopefully the merfolk and sekrai can help out when it fails
Tess being all of us when we remember “if said out loud, plan = fail”…!
At least we know why Dainix and Erin are together in the Chapter cover, although it still looks like Erin will be doing the Fire Transmutation, judging by that fireball he’s holding. Interested to see what Dainix’s exact reasoning will be. Also suggests that the rest of the team will be splitting up; I really hope they’re going to find Falst a safe place to rest while Tess and Kendal draw the Paladins away.
Incidentially, SCATTER fully looks more like an album cover than a chapter cover, but I’m living for it.
Apologies, this wasn’t meant as a reply.
To be fair, he didn’t exactly say too many specifics
i really hope falst still has the bubble lacrima
Not sure if we can blame the surprise Paladin on Erin either. Though the easy to track sky beam probably didn’t help. Nor telling the paladins his name.
Sometimes it really does come down to “Well, do you have any *better* plans? Because we have to do something, and we are on a time limit.”
Ah yes, the worst kind of plan: The ones that are terrible but are still necessary.
Can’t kendal handle this? He doesn’t need to breathe, he’s durable enough to resist the elements, and he is not currently in a weakened state.
He DOES need to breathe while fighting or exerting himself though, and moving through water could involve exertion. It’s too big a risk to send him underwater having no real certainty of what he needs to survive.
Kendal, with his metal bones, walking underwater straight to the wreck like https://youtu.be/YTn2sViERsg
Not currently in a weakened state? He got blown up by Tam’s skybeam pretty recently, before “fighting” volcano guy falst literally had to hold him up because he could barely stand, he hasn’t gotten healing since and I’m pretty sure it’s only been a couple days at most
A couple days? That all happened TODAY.
Erin: Really? YOU are lecturing ME not to magically brute force my way though problems.
Tess: … Do as I say, not as I do.
I knew salvaging Erin’s bag was going to be important for it’s supplies, but sealing jewellery is new. It does make sense though that a) Erin, a noble, would have his early sealing runes in the form of jewellery, and b) he would hold onto them even after being tattooed as a backup if the tats are damaged.
Still, something tells me that they will only be a stopgap and his powers are still going to be limited, assuming they can even find them.
Ah, I was wondering how the barrier between land and sea would be breached. This plan does sound pretty bad with their current knowledge, but if Erin and Dainix find Alinua and learn of her allies, it may turn out to be a good one in hindsight. Who knows? Maybe they’ll get lucky and find her already at the boat, salvaging what she can with her new friends.
Note Dainix’s phasing; “have” to come with you, not want. Is he trying to keep well away from the Paladins due to the danger of Light-to-Void transmutation? Does he want to handle the fire transmutation bit to reduce the strain on Erin? Or is he driven by a sense of guilt, as his fear of water triggering his powers was the first domino that led to their current predicament?
I wonder how Erin will react to Alinua’s flesh-shaping? We’ve established that Asera forbids that technique, and Erin was aggressive enough with Jolon to suggest that he agrees. I’m sure he’ll be fascinated, but I wonder if he’ll approve.
I think an important distinction here is that she flesh-shaped herself; Dr. Jolon twisted innocent creatures against their will and bent them to his will. Flesh shaping yourself is probably still illegal because it’s stupid, but it’s much less ethically dubious.
Also she did it unconsciously, if it was even her and not Primordial Life.
Along with what others have said, Erin already knows that both Alinua and Life hate chimeras and would never inflict flesh-shaping on others (Northern Wyrm notwithstanding but that’s a very different context). He’s also seen Alinua/Life make a plant colossus while out cold and has been musing whether Alinua, being Life’s Chosen, even can die.
Erin knows that Alinua/Life would never flesh-shape unless under very select circumstances, and if there was anyone on the planet who could pull off flesh-shaping in an ethical and safe manner, it’s her.
At least we know why Dainix and Erin are together in the Chapter cover, although it still looks like Erin will be doing the Fire Transmutation, judging by that fireball he’s holding. Interested to see what Dainix’s exact reasoning will be. Also suggests that the rest of the team will be splitting up; I really hope they’re going to find Falst a safe place to rest while Tess and Kendal draw the Paladins away.
Incidentally, SCATTER fully looks more like an album cover than a chapter cover, but I’m living for it.
“I have seen soulfire burn at the bottom of the Ocean.” – Tahraim
So we know Dainix doesn’t need saving if things get tough.
Dainix is also utterly immune to the Dragon, should he try anything.
Can’t let Erin go alone.
Can’t give Erin anyone he needs to protect from the elements or the Dragon, because then he does stupid things.
Dainix fits both criteria.
Oh yeah, I forgot about that.
Thank you for your earnest and sincere answer to @Christopher’s post! You made an old worry-wort’s day much lighter today!
Thank you for the explanation @
Beware, beware… Jaina Proudmoore vibe intensifies
The bag of holding may yet live.
Dumbest smartboy competition: Erin Ruunaser VS Odysseus of Ithaca. I feel like folks here might have opinions.
Ha! That is the perfect comparison. They even both made the crucial mistake of introducing themselves.
I don’t know, man. Odysseus actively chose NOT to Get in the Water, if you catch my drift.
“As far as we know, the sea monster was NOT my fault,” like he’s still open to the possibility that it somehow was is probably my favourite line on this page XD And to be fair, without the monster, the appearance of Tam, and Dainix accidentally setting the boat on fire, he may have been able to brute force the storm. The problem is that a) he never leaves any wiggle room for the unexpected, b) he’s still trying to take on everything himself, and c) he forgets that the universe has it in for him in particular.
I love when a whole bunch of theories/questions/threads are answered in a single page. And (I assume) everyone who has been waiting since “Good thing we’re not going down there” is kicking their feet in delight. I know I am. (Dainix, I presume, is not.)
Oh dear.
Agreed with Dainix: it’s a terrible plan, they need to do it, and it makes sense for Dainix to go since he has the power to transmute via soulfire.
It does sound like they’re planning to split up the party again. Falst looks, justifiably, extremely unhappy about this… or maybe particularly unhappy about Dainix putting himself in peril. Again. After Falst thought he was dead and braved a volcano to save him, then saw him get slammed by a paladin attack, and all that.
it may be a terrible plan, but this page is a wonderful birthday present for me because we get the Floof Squad back!! (most of them, anyway, but still glad to see them as always!)
Happy birthday! Erin has gifted you a Terrible Idea.
Happy birthday! A solid 4/6 Flood Squad members are now sleeveless. Whether or not you view this as a gift, it has been given.
Happy birthday!
thank you all for the birthday wishes!! and you both are so right about the extra gifts of this page hahahaha, I love a good Terrible Idea and some good dramatic fashion choices (intentional or not)!
A bubble? You mean the exact lacrima falst had and was actively using in his hand while trying to get Dainix off the ship? Could be easier than we thought?
How do they get to the water? Down the cliff, past the ARMY, and out to the ocean without getting cought. This seems like a recipe for disaster. Also, the rule of: If they say the plan, the plan won’t work. I have a feeling last panel was FORESHADOWING!
I love how Erin’s powerset is both simultaneously powerful yet fragile. He can in theory do anything but in practice he is limited by factors outside his control and what he didn’t prepare for.
Wait, ANOTHER Henry Stickmin reference? (The last one was 2.5.37) Also, it’s the literal exact same caption as before.
THIS IS THE GREATEST PLAAAAA-*Crashes helicopter*
Falst does not want Dainex to go at all.
I’m also wondering when was the last time we saw Falst without any broken limbs. My boy’s healing factor is working overtime.
Hmmmmm… Falst is injured here, was injured in the volcano, was injured on the ship and in Argist (“I was tactical, lefty only”), was quite injured in the ancient laboratory with Dainix. Trying to remember if Falst broke any bokes in the Tynan fight. His last time fully healed may have been after jumping off the prison in Zuurith with Alinua (“Do you know how many of your BONES I just HEALED?”)!
Erin: What do you mean, ‘it’s a sunk cost’? I will just walk down to the bottom of the ocean and get it back!
Falst’s arm is invisible in panel 5.
More and more of things, that were said in chapter 2.2 (Waves) are coming true:
Falst feeling exposed on the open ocean -> they get attacked by Tam,
Alinua wanting to meet a mermaid -> Chapter 2.5 happens,
and now now Dainix: “it’s a good thing we won’t be going down there.” -> “This is a terrible plan. […] I think I have to go with you.”
Foreshadowing is a literary device that we love to recognize! Thanks for pointing these out, I didn’t remember the quotes, I think it’s time for another reread 🙂
2.1.23 – “We should see how long [Kendal] can stay underwater!”
“ive seen soulfire burn at the bottom of the ocean” ohhhh HERE WE GO
ERIN RUNASER
????-????
“Alright, let’s do this! craAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH-“
Castoff readers, let us salute Erin for doing what Frankie could never attempt: Get his bag of stuff back from the seafloor.
🫡🫡🫡Erin
Poor Frankie😔
Also I love that the Venn diagram of Castoff and Aurora fans is quite nearly a circle
*Green helicopter approaches from the background and crashes into the ocean*
Hmmmmm yum yum yum terrible plans
my favorite